Yes, Ho-lah...
It continues... And thank-you to the Nonny Mouse for giving me something to structure my thoughts around. I can see where I need to clarify some things.
Firstly, let me stress again, I am not in BooHooLand. My primary motivation is pissed-off-ed-ness cos I am feeling like I am being tricked by Society (for lack of a better term), and although this is of no particular surprise to me, my Bullshit Tolerator is broken...
And I am fed up with seeing many of the wonderful people in my life sitting there wondering the same shit; all of us feeling like freaks cos nothing and no one seems enough for us. But I don't think it is us. And I don't think it is any failings on the partners' behalf. I think we've been set up to fall; that's where my passion on this topic stems from.
So to step away from the linguistic thing, now we're all clear the specific type of Love on trial... and to tackle some practical issues; ask some more relevant questions.
*looks out the window and ponders for a bit*
Do you not think there is something weirdly 'dependent' about needing to feel fulfilled by another person? And I take Nonny Mouse's point about finding things when you're not looking; I've experienced the same thing. It's not that uncommon to hear about people who feel particularly bonded; they discover each other serendipitously. It is not the attraction or connection itself I take issue with... it's what that connection ultimately does to the two people who find each other and attract. Once you 'fall in love' you don't want to be without that person. You feel (omg...*gags*) 'complete': interdependently reliant on that person for a soft, safe place to sook; for sex; for sanity; money, fun, family, fighting... Your lives become so inextricably linked dependence is assured. And if or when they go... Personally, it's not a place I want to be, nor do I want to be responsible for anyone else being there. And I am seeing little need for us putting ourselves in the situation where the potential for such pain hangs like Damocles Sword, and frustration to the point of streaming tears is totally guaranteed.
I guess I would have assumed we were all grown-up enough to see that the 'life partner' thing might have had it's time. Look how fucked up most of us are. Why are we continuing to aspire to ridiculous expectations? Why can't we hook-up and be in love and not expect that person to be our Be All and End All...? Why can't we start something with the adult attitude (learnt from experience) that it will likely end? (And then play like children til it does?)
(Ok, hilarity break: Kim Kardashian wants to act! Never even knew my script for Gross Slapper Whore From VomitLand made the grade! Dumb moll. And ain't Kim an awesome ambassador for marriage and life-long commitment! Ha!)
Do I rest my case now? *giggles*
Nup. Got more to say. Sawwwwy! Ummm...
Right... to quote Nonny Mouse:
I am not naive enough to think that having that person means a perfect and uncomplicated relationship, in fact it's having someone who can go through changes and accept your changes, confusions, mistakes (need I go on?) and still want to hold your hand on the journey that makes for an interesting and fulfilling partnership..
I'm not that naive either. Nor would I ever want an 'uncomplicated' relationship; that would be weird and not at all stimulating. But here's the thing: How do you know they will accept your changes? Or you accept theirs? You don't. You DO NOT. And what if their changes are harmful to you? How much shit do you take from your husband/wife/significant other before you consider yourself? And does the 'Love' you show by staying, the 'Faith' you keep in your vows, the 'Hope' you instill in things improving, do these things keep you safe? Heal your physical or psychic wounds? And MORE... what if YOU are the abuser? What if you changed in a way that harms your partner and they refuse to leave...? Cos they 'Love' you? Can you leave some one cos their love for you is hurting them...? (Brain hurt yet?)
'Yes, Yes Mis(f)Risky... you have to TRUST. You have to have FAITH.'
And Yes, yes PersonWhoStillThinks-I-AmJust-A-LoveLornBrokenHeartedOldTart, I get 'Faith'. We are back to the faerytales of Grimm or God.
I am not sure if I am super-duper lucky, or if I am broken and fucked. (Not that they are mutually exclusive... I am the world's smartest ditz.) But I have 'someone who can go through changes and accept (my) changes, confusions, mistakes and still want to hold (my) hand' In fact, I have several someone's. They are my Close Friends, and I love them with an ease that is at times amazing when considered against my romantic relationships. These are people who allow me to speak, and honour me by letting me listen; they have no fear of my tears, or my volume. They hug me and kiss me and share affection and warmth for support and fun. They don't judge me or want me to be 'better'; they tell me I'm a mental case and make me feel 'normal'. And they can do all this cos they don't have to live with me day in, day out. I am not the most important person in their life. They don't get a chance to get sick of the things they love about me. And they don't see as much of the things they don't.
That said, Friend Break-ups can be just as devastating as the breakdown of a relationship. The difference being, we are more equipped to deal with this. There is rarely so much pressure to be together forever.
Ok, nuff for now.
x
PS. Here's your bonus prize for reading to the end, cos I swear I am NOT crying...
Ooh I like this, it's turning into an interesting little debate. :)
ReplyDeleteI am not sure who suggested that all we have to do is have faith but I just re-read what I wrote and I am sure it wasn't me. ☺
First things first, I am not trying in any way to 'convert' you to thinking my way, in fact I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I do, however have the following points to make, if you will so allow:
I think the most important thing here is that we all come to this discussion with our own experiences and values etc (I almost feel like I don't need to say this to such an awesomely observant and intelligent person but it precedes my point) and so you happen, as you said to have seen many . people in relationships, marriages that are both dysfunctional and perhaps even pointless in the first place, fulfilling some need to be complete and yes, there are definitely couples who become dependent upon each other in an unhealthy, in my opinion, way. I think a lot has to do with the reasons for getting into a relationship in the first place: insecurity, daddy issues, you name it I know someone who 'solves' that with finding a partner. Like you, I know plenty of those people too, and plenty more single people who seem way happier on their own.
However, this is not a binary issue in my eyes, a one or the other, like being in a relationship equals ultimate dependancy and boredom vs being single means living a carefree happy life. There are not only two options and this is where my point about coming to this discussion from different places counts. I happen to know couples who have both a strong bond and the freedom to remain an individual. You suggest this is impossible, but I have seen it first hand, and I'm not only talking about me here.
You know you're description of your wonderful friendships (and that is not sarcasm, I think it's a wonderful thing) sound a lot to me like how I describe my marriage. I have never been so comfortable in my own skin, and felt less judged than by a lot of my 'friends.'
"I love them with an ease that is at times amazing when considered against my romantic relationships. These are people who allow me to speak, and honour me by letting me listen; they have no fear of my tears, or my volume. They hug me and kiss me and share affection and warmth for support and fun. They don't judge me or want me to be 'better'; they tell me I'm a mental case and make me feel 'normal'."
So, if you have that relationship with them, why is it not possible to have that relationship with another person and call it a marriage instead of a friendship? I do not KNOW that they will never do anything to harm me, change in a way that I can't live with and all of the other things you point out, but neither do you know that about your friends, and as you say, braking up with a friend is traumatic for the very reason that we invested something in them, a trust, a belief, a 'faith' that they are decent people who we have some common bond or attraction to and want in our lives. Yes, they don't have to live with you or I day in day out but we invest emotionally because if we don't what's the point? Are you seriously telling me that you approach all of your human contact like 'hey, so I think you're ok right now but I probably won't in a few years so if you wanna hang around then cool but the eventuality is that we won't always be friends'? Don't you apply some 'faith' to your friendships and trust that they have the intelligence and humility to not judge you, listen, etc etc? Give others some credit may e a better way to say it, avoiding the religious connotations of 'faith.'
So, with that said, I would suggest that in fact, while there is no 'one size fits all' relationship and we are already assuming that we agree that the doctrine of marriage is nonsense (we covered that already) I think it's fair to say that works both ways. A committed relationship may be hell on earth to some, depending of course on the individuals involved and I would most certainly rather be single than in a hellish relationship for fear of being alone. But you are only giving that scenario as the example of what a relationship can be. Perhaps because that's what you see, and I get that, but what I am saying is that I have seen relationships at every point of the spectrum, and I think it is just that, not a hell or heaven kind of issue (oh are we back to religion again? Another time.)
ReplyDeleteI guess what I'm trying to get over here, and it's harder than I thought, is that we are ALL different, and it seems we have had almost the opposite of experiences. I'm suggesting that being in love doesn't have to equal the be all and end all. Each to their own is what I say, while you feel like it's death to the individual, it's not always the case. Again...give (some) people some credit. Marriage isn’t ALWAYS good but that doesn’t equal it ALWAYS being bad.
Does YOUR brain hurt yet? :) Mine does, I know I haven't managed to say half of what I mean and I hope it doesn't come across as 'arguing.' I actually like the fact that I spent some time today thinking about this and reasoning my response. I promise not to hijack your blog but it's actually refreshing to have a discussion, even if it involves brain hurty kinda feelings, my thoughts were just kinda flowing, hope it has some sense to it.
Nonny.
(In two posts, I was yet again on a roll, sorry)
P.S. I am aware you're not crying, nor should you be, but neither am I, and both of those things are fine.
ReplyDeleteNonnykins...
ReplyDeleteNope. Brain not pained. Actually quite excited at the prospect of (again) clarifying my thoughts... Sadly, I only have time for a quick reply right now, but you will assuredly be supplied with a retort sometime soon.
Off the top of head, I will say this: I am not particularly interested in the experiences of the mainstream, or people who don't question things enough to even consider there may be something more. I don't KNOW these people. I am talking in generalisations about MY experiences and those of people I know. I am not trying to persuade; I have no answers, and my opinions are malleable. All I am doing here is venting my frustrations. No more.
But, I will ALWAYS debate. And I welcome the opportunity to participate with such an articulate and thoughtful correspondent.
Also, might I add (although I am sure there is no need with such a mature and considered person) nothing said here is personal. I don't take you points of issue as anything against me, and I would hope you will do the same.
Get back to ya lateries... :)
reading all that just made my brain liquify. stuffing cottonballs in my ears and dashing off to the er...
ReplyDeleteNonny-Mousey... (and quiet correspondents)
ReplyDeleteForgive the delay... I've been in Pissed-OffLand, and didn't want to respond before making sure I wasn't going to say 'fuck' a lot. These are my initial thoughts in response to Nonny's post. I was going to both respond and formulate some new ideas. But that could be another day or so off... so here is my reply. Nothing very new in there. Might perhaps clarify some things.
And Nonny... really enjoy your thought-provoking comments, even if they give me the shits a bit. It's fun and interesting and definitely helps focus my thoughts. So thank-you, once more. And please know you are in no way gong to 'hijack' mah blahhg. I am totally armed to the back teeth with 'delete comment'. xxx
"...there are definitely couples who become dependent upon each other in an unhealthy, in my opinion, way. I think a lot has to do with the reasons for getting into a relationship in the first place: insecurity, daddy issues, you name it I know someone who 'solves' that with finding a partner"
It sounds like you are basically saying dysfunctional people make dysfunctional relationships. If so, I agree.
I do not know ONE person who doesn't have an 'issue'. That is, perhaps a 'human' thing these days (and another topic altogether) and the only difference is in the levels of functionality our 'issues' allow. And yes, I have seen people's individual drama's affect the relationship so much so that it has had to end
"I happen to know couples who have both a strong bond and the freedom to remain an individual."
Hmmm... Perhaps you really do. I am not saying it is impossible. (I don't do 'impossible', really) I get that there are exceptions to every rule, and perhaps (like me) you have attracted what you know; what you value; what you like... Or perhaps what you are seeing is what these other couple wish to project. Perhaps none of these people have woken up to the fact that they have compromised themselves unrecognisable.
"So, if you have that relationship with them, why is it not possible to have that relationship with another person and call it a marriage instead of a friendship?"
Ok, first... If that WERE possible, even in a general sense (and if I were one of the 'general') then why would we not all marry our best friends? And IF we DO marry our best friends as many Life-Long Partner people advocate, then why do people then complain that it feels like they are married to their 'best friend'; meaning, we get along awesome and have a ball, but we don't fuck. And what I was generally discussing with a friend the other day was why we COULDN'T just all hang out and grown old together and go all Cocoon without gross alien eggs in the waters...
And I did explain about friends; it easier to accept their loss for the mere fact we never thought they were our Soulmate or Life Partner. We never committed to them through shared vows, or children or promises of 'forever'.
... tbc
....
ReplyDeleteNonster, I am seriously telling you I do not approach ALL my human contact with 'hey, so I think you're ok right now but I probably won't in a few years so if you wanna hang around then cool but the eventuality is that we won't always be friends'? Not ALL. However I can and will seriously tell you anyone who has a romantic interest in me in the last few years is pretty quickly informed that as much as they think I am awesome right now, they will either be sick of my shit on a few years, or I'll be sick of putting them through my shit. I do like to remain friends with my ex-es though. So I would hope that we would stay friends. But I am very open about the fact that I am questioning of relationships, and don't feel like I am good at them (romantic). Apparently this is sometimes endearing. Or else it is like throwing down the gauntlet, and I am blessed/cursed (?) that some truly beautiful people have taken the challenge. And I was sorry to disappoint them by being right.
"Marriage isn’t ALWAYS good but that doesn’t equal it ALWAYS being bad."
Of course.The fact that 'good' marriages exist only serves to give us something to strive for. I am saying the truly happy, life-long marriages are a rarity. I am just looking at the fact that more often than not, I see people struggle with these relationships more than they enjoy them. There are pros and cons to both situations; there are experience the attached and unattached can't share. I get all this and I have considered where the balance falls... and thus I grab my soapbox.
Right, onto my new post... Lovelessness as a Disability....
x